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What about web games?
May 24th 2007, 15:55 CEST by Gunp01nt

First off, let’s get some facts and figures. Runescape reportedly has 9 million active accounts. OGame (spiritual successor of Planetarion) has 2 million. But people who have played these games will know that they’re far from AAA quality we’re used to on our l33t gaming machines.
Yet these games attract lots of players. Maybe because they’re free, maybe because they’re available on any computer with a browser and don’t require a shiny new console or gaming PC. Who can say for sure?
Well, maybe the proprietors of pioneering web game Planetarion. When they were forced to start charging for accounts after the dot com crash, their userbase dropped to an estimated few thousands.

So does that mean the web isn’t a platform where money can be made? I don’t think so. Let’s restate the obvious and well-known advantages of the web:

- Accessible almost everywhere thanks to the ubiquity of internet connections
- Always up-to-date
- Web pages can look good without requiring fast client hardware.

That’s how the information web was sold to consumers 10 years ago. Now apply these advantages to the position of game developers, who increasingly go for a multi-platform release to maximize profit. There are two free web browsers for the Wii, one for the PS3 and apparently they’re all somewhat Web 2.0 friendly.

That creates the possibility of bringing rich web games to a very wide audience.*
It’s surprising that games like OGame and Planetarion fail to make use of AJAX and other staples of Web 2.0, especially considering games seem like one of the few places where the excessive level of interaction and activity offered by AJAX is justified. Addition of these things could bring web games to a higher level of interactivity and UI and make them more appealing to a wide circle of users.

What we need next is a solid business model. These days, ads just won’t cut it and would deteriorate the perceived quality of web games anyway. But as the many subscriber MMORPGs have shown, people are willing and able to pay for a game service if it’s good enough.
Other options could be a fantasy sports approach: picture a space strategy game where people can start and run their own game universes for a fee. That’s just one example.

What do you think, could subscription based web games work on a larger scale? Will the increasing presence of browsers on consoles open up a wider audience?

(* Arguably, console owners usually have a PC for internet purposes and are more likely to use that for web games. That, or their work PC’s)
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#15 by Gunp01nt
2007-05-24 18:47:42
supersimon33@hotmail.com
#14 by eggbert

I played OGame for a while. It would definitely benefit from some web2.0zation. The "gameplay" is mostly clicking a button and waiting for a timer to countdown or resources to build up so you can click another button, but it uses the MMO model of rewards and tech trees to keep you interested. Actually though, I think the best comparison would be a really slow RTS, where you have a lot of time, hours, to plan your next move. It's a good at work game to a point, after which the scale of things becomes a little silly and you have to start micromanaging.


See, that's exactly the sort of game I'm thinking about making.

dethstryk: My friend bought some porno mags. He's single-handedly holding up the porn industry.
yotsuya: What's he doing with the other hand?
#16 by Greg
2007-05-24 19:23:37
A few of my siblings play Puzzle Pirates.

|^^^^^^^^^^^^ |||__
|  こんにちは              | ||'|"\,__.
|_..._...______===|=||_|__|...,]
(@)'(@)"""*|(@)*(@)*****(@)
#17 by Matt Perkins
2007-05-24 19:44:13
wizardque@yahoo.com http://whatwouldmattdo.com/
I played Travian for a bit... it got real boring real fast when I had to wait hours and hours to do my next move. Meh. Those kinds of games are interesting, but they aren't good long term, imho.

My intelligence, then, is not absolute but is a function of the society I live in

"I'm not sure it's possible to make a "subtle" jab at Matt's writing ability." - Ergo
#18 by jjz
2007-05-24 21:34:36
Sprecher root beer is a favorite.
#19 by jjohnsen
2007-05-24 22:01:50
http://www.johnsenclan.com
Never heard of it.  Is it a regional brand?

Actually, the liberalism of the media - as a general thing - IS a major fallacy. What the media is, is a whore.  -LP       Johnsen Family
#20 by lwf
2007-05-24 22:23:40
I played LONSB quite a bit.

5 reasons to hate minorities: Poor, Lazy, Smell bad, Wrong religion, and the rich ones take all the women. Wii.
#21 by CheesyPoof
2007-05-24 22:25:10
Yea, that was cool. I mentioned that a couple days ago.
#22 by Shadarr
2007-05-24 22:34:40
shadarr@yahoo.com http://digital-luddite.com
I played that for a while and some spaceship version of Trade Wars, but none of them have really kept my attention the way a real game does.  I mean, I probably spent as much time playing Guitar Hero last night as I played LONSB in total.

Even I know what crossing the Rubicon means, and I know fuck all about American history. -m0nty
#23 by CheesyPoof
2007-05-24 22:52:39
You can play the game that was the source for LotNSB here.
#24 by Qmanol
2007-05-24 23:19:39
Or you can play a more fleshed-out game based on LORD mechanics here.

It isn't a Fallout game unless I use my pickpocketing skill to place a ticking dynamite bomb into the pockets of an 8 year old boy.
#25 by McBain
2007-05-25 06:52:37
Oy...

World of Warcraft is a pie eating contest where the reward is more pie.
#26 by Shadarr
2007-05-25 07:32:18
shadarr@yahoo.com http://digital-luddite.com
Women in other countries have been using pills to stop the inconvenience of having periods for decades?  I'd heard about some women skipping the placebo section of their pills, but that was just individuals (in North America).

Even I know what crossing the Rubicon means, and I know fuck all about American history. -m0nty
#27 by The_Joker
2007-05-25 13:32:40
http://www.jackinworld.com
this topic sucks

Joker, Ph.D. Procedural Assholian Behaviour, Pedophilosopher
- All your ass are belong to my wang Jafd. Prepare to are penetration.
"I fart in THX." - Sgt_Hulka

PAY ATTENTION, YA DUMB FUKKAN CACKSUKKAN IGNORANT MORANS.
#28 by Gunp01nt
2007-05-25 13:38:47
supersimon33@hotmail.com
Matt P.:
I played Travian for a bit... it got real boring real fast when I had to wait hours and hours to do my next move. Meh. Those kinds of games are interesting, but they aren't good long term, imho.


When I played Planetarion, I found it was fun to log in to the game a couple of times a day, check my stats and make my moves and get on with work/life. It's like a turn based game with 8 hour turns, not a game you sit down and play for a couple of hours. It's more like fantasy football than WoW or Civilization.

dethstryk: My friend bought some porno mags. He's single-handedly holding up the porn industry.
yotsuya: What's he doing with the other hand?
#29 by Gunp01nt
2007-05-25 13:40:13
supersimon33@hotmail.com
What I meant to add was: that's the most feasible concept for webgames imho.

dethstryk: My friend bought some porno mags. He's single-handedly holding up the porn industry.
yotsuya: What's he doing with the other hand?
#30 by jjohnsen
2007-05-25 16:20:15
http://www.johnsenclan.com
#26 by Shadarr

Women in other countries have been using pills to stop the inconvenience of having periods for decades?  I'd heard about some women skipping the placebo section of their pills, but that was just individuals (in North America).

Really.  That sounds a bit freaky to just stop it.

Actually, the liberalism of the media - as a general thing - IS a major fallacy. What the media is, is a whore.  -LP       Johnsen Family
#31 by mgns
2007-05-25 16:36:24
So what? Medicine is full of freaky shit.

fuck your song
and fuck your dance
fuck your keeping me
down and under
#32 by Warren Marshall
2007-05-25 16:41:22
http://www.wantonhubris.com/
Oy...

That blonde woman needs to be punched in the face. Fuck, that's irritating.  "I need babies.  We need babies.  We need more babies."  SHUT THE FUCK UP!  Damn it...  The last thing this strung out planet needs is more people on it.  That pill is a god send.

#33 by McBain
2007-05-25 16:53:25
So what? Medicine is full of freaky shit.

Yep, medicine is chemically/physically altering the behavior of your body for a desired good.  I don't see why people think this is so weird.

World of Warcraft is a pie eating contest where the reward is more pie.
#34 by McBain
2007-05-25 19:19:12
Chinese Gold Farmers

World of Warcraft is a pie eating contest where the reward is more pie.
#35 by None-1a
2007-05-26 08:09:25
#33 by McBain
Yep, medicine is chemically/physically altering the behavior of your body for a desired good.  I don't see why people think this is so weird.


I could see making an argument that it's medically wired. Mostly since every article written back when Sesonale was approved just had to include something about iron build up and cancer risks being the reason for the once every 3 months cycle persisting (So if you don't know better and remember those articles making the jump from 4 per year to never would sound off).

Also McBain your lucky they're talking to stupid nuts jobs really. The whole 'omg no bleading means you aren't a woman' angle will fade quickly, if they'd been smarter and attacked based on the 'approvable letter' the FDA gave Lybrel back in June over concerns over quality control at the plant Wyeth plans make the stuff at rumors of it being 'unsafe' would hang over the drugs whole time in the market.
#36 by bago
2007-05-26 12:34:25
manga_Rando@hotmail.com
XAML rocks ass. That is all.

Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want and deserve to get it good and hard.
#37 by gaggle
2007-05-26 13:06:33
Here's a timelapse video of the modern approach to 3d modeling. This new workflow is taking root more and more, though it's still (in my experience) mostly confined to making characters. But gone are the days of slowly building up shit poly by poly and slapping on a bump map. Maybe some of you will find it interesting.

"…a four-dimensional real vector space equipped with a nondegenerate, symmetric bilinear form."
#38 by bago
2007-05-26 13:33:30
manga_Rando@hotmail.com
Did I mention XAML?

Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want and deserve to get it good and hard.
#39 by LPMiller
2007-05-26 14:35:06
lpmiller@gotapex.com http://www.gotapex.com
did I give a shit?

"Testiculos habet et bene pendentes" — "He has testicles, and they dangle nicely."
#40 by m0nty
2007-05-26 15:02:44
http://tinfinger.blogspot.com
Hey bago, what do you think of X3D, if anything?
#41 by Warren Marshall
2007-05-26 18:24:02
http://www.wantonhubris.com/
XAML?  Sounds painfully boring.

#42 by wingwalker
2007-05-26 19:30:07
The issue at hand is that no one really knows what the long term health effects of halting menses will be. Will it increase the risk of cancer? Will it cause decreased bone mass in later years? These are documented side effects of pill usage. What will the effects be with sustained use? I have been skipping placebos ever since I figured out that it would illiminate my cycle. My doctor thought it was fine. They could study me if they really wanted to find out long term effects and I can assure you I've not been the only one doing it. Another thing to consider is that, for most women, a menstrual cycle is not something that makes them broken and therefore should not require fixing. For myself, it was a huge factor in G-load management (while wingwalking)as it depleted my hydration levels not to mention that it's a pain to manage. I don't want children now or ever so I don't really care. Being sick, bloated, aching back, cramps once a month has no appeal for me. Good ridance to bad company!
#43 by gaggle
2007-05-26 19:37:23
In a bid not to be outdone by Heroes, Veronica Mars season 3 episode 16 has four dudes cheering and playing Gears of War. For about a second. Two are holding controllers, but the screen only shows one player playing. Good times :).


That is all.

"…a four-dimensional real vector space equipped with a nondegenerate, symmetric bilinear form."
#44 by Hugin
2007-05-26 20:28:47
lmccain@nber.org
(I'm not trying to attack you Wing, but I am going to use the issues raised in your post to talk about a lot of misinformation floating around about this stuff)


#42 by wingwalker

The issue at hand is that no one really knows what the long term health effects of halting menses will be.


That's not really true.  As you mentioned, a significant number of women maintain a pill regimen that has the same effect, in fact, the regular pill regimen already halts ovulation.  The bleeding women on the regular pill experience is artificial, basically, a deliberate attempt to simulate menstruation on the part of the pharmaceutical companies.  And women have been taking the pill for decades.  So why put up with a fake period?

Will it increase the risk of cancer?


No.  In fact it will probably reduce the risk of some cancers like ovarian cancer.  

Will it cause decreased bone mass in later years?


Probably, just like the regular pill.  Women on the pill should already increase their dietary calcium intake or take a calcium supplement.  

Basically, this is a very low dose pill with no placebo period.  It's not that exotic, and not significantly different from the women who've already been skipping the placebo.
 
Another thing to consider is that, for most women, a menstrual cycle is not something that makes them broken and therefore should not require fixing.


I see this as, at one end of the spectrum, a lifestyle issue.  Do you find your period annoying or inconvenient?  Are you sick of futzing around with pads and tampons and whatnot? Worrying about bad frigging timing in swimsuit season? Get rid of it.  Yay, science! Yay modern civilization!

And if you're a woman who is significantly adversely affected by her period, like my stepmother who, pre menopause, was nearly completely disabled two or three days a month, every month with heavy bleeding and cramps, it'll be a godsend.

Remember:  A typical modern western woman, a woman going to school, in the workforce, i.e not spending most of her fertile life from the early to mid teens onward pregnant or nursing (which would be shutting down menstruation in most women), is having, historically speaking, a ridiculously high number of periods, several hundred more in her lifetime than her ancestors.  So it's not like the current state of things is so "natural" anyway.  

There's no need to demonize menstruation, but there's no need to worship it either, not when these regimens are voluntary and reversible.  No one is going to be less of a woman.
#45 by hangedmanAG
2007-05-26 20:52:42
www.livejournal.com/users/hangedman_ag/
Whew!  Thank god Hugin is here to educate Wing about women issues.

My crummy little life
#46 by Hugin
2007-05-26 22:04:29
lmccain@nber.org
That's why I said, I was using Wing's post to expand on stuff I've been reading around the web in this argument.  Wing expressed similar sentiments anyway.
#47 by Warren Marshall
2007-05-26 22:35:15
http://www.wantonhubris.com/
Whew!  Thank god Hugin is here to educate Wing about women issues.

Hugin already said he gained the knowledge he's sharing through reading.  Not a popular way to go, I know, but some people still enjoy it.

#48 by gaggle
2007-05-26 22:36:22
No no, we must pile on your eloquently phrased post and, through means of forum magic, twist what you actually said into simple black and white statements that we can all get our froth on over. Prepare to have your post filed as a) false, b) unjustified, and c) racist.

"…a four-dimensional real vector space equipped with a nondegenerate, symmetric bilinear form."
#49 by Shadarr
2007-05-26 23:07:59
shadarr@yahoo.com http://digital-luddite.com
Black people can't be racist.

I think the main point to remember is that the adverse health effects from this are going to be exactly the same as from the regular pill, because it's the same drug repackaged without placebos.  I highly doubt there will be any adverse effects just from not having a period.  Didn't bloodletting go out of style a couple centuries ago?

Even I know what crossing the Rubicon means, and I know fuck all about American history. -m0nty
#50 by Qmanol
2007-05-26 23:39:59
The whole thing gives me a sort of vague, irrational concern. I tried to think of something analogous, and I though that if there was some sort of pill that eliminated the need for sleep, I'd also be similarly discomfited.  (Though given the known results of sleep deprivation I'd probably have a bit more reason to be concerned)

For some reason, the removal of a cyclical process from the body altogether just makes me start imagining all sorts of sinister side-effects building up. Is it foolish? Probably. But I think even some people who find the idea intellectually fine (ie. myself) will have those vague doubts to dispel. Not like I have to worry about it anyway.

It isn't a Fallout game unless I use my pickpocketing skill to place a ticking dynamite bomb into the pockets of an 8 year old boy.
#51 by m0nty
2007-05-27 00:59:33
http://tinfinger.blogspot.com
Shadarr (#49):
Black people can't be racist.

This is true. Asian people, however, are the racistest.
#52 by Leslie Nassar
2007-05-27 04:33:11
http://departmentofinternets.com
I dig XAML and all, but it's not the alpha-and-omega.  I thought you led a life of fun and excitement, Bago?  Is XAML really as good as it gets for you?
#53 by wingwalker
2007-05-27 04:53:30
That's why I said, I was using Wing's post to expand on stuff I've been reading around the web in this argument.  Wing expressed similar sentiments anyway


For what it's worth, I was just playing devil's advocate. As stated in my original post, I've been skipping placebos since the time of Dinosaurs and have no health concerns about doing it. I agree with Hugin on most points. The fact that this pill is causing so much controversy is ridiculous. Any idiot child using birth control *me* could figure out how to "manage" away their period in a heartbeat. It is not new at all, it merely has a new name. No one was this upset when women started getting injections(can't recall the name) every three months as a form of birth control which also prevented menstruation.

In my opinion, periods are horribly nasty and deserve eradication with extreme prejudice.
#54 by Matt Perkins
2007-05-27 18:36:25
wizardque@yahoo.com http://whatwouldmattdo.com/
XAML actually sounds interesting.

My intelligence, then, is not absolute but is a function of the society I live in

"I'm not sure it's possible to make a "subtle" jab at Matt's writing ability." - Ergo
#55 by Dumdeedum
2007-05-27 23:36:58
http://www.dumdeedum.com
Game poster link stolen from Blues.

There's plenty there I can't quite remember/don't recognise, but reading roughly left to right:

Hitman (on wanted poster)
Sam & Max (or someone in Sam & Max suits anyway)
Max Payne (shooting while being held up by the trolley)
Serious Sam (hugging someone and holding a cup of something)
Beyond Good & Evil (Jade holding up a sign, the pig pointing at her)
Lemmings (running towards the big monkey head)
Hidden and Dangerous? (the 7 guys hiding in the trench on the left)
Bomberman (holding a tommy gun, prodding a bomb)
Metal Gear Solid (hiding in the trench on the right)
Grim Fandango (Manny Calavera with a scythe on the left)
Dungeon Keeper (guy with the scythe in the middle)
Painkiller (guy shooting a stake through a line of characters)
Full Throttle (the chopper)
Command & Conquer (guy watering the crystals)
Halo (Master Chief controlling the gun on the crashed warthog)
Little Big Adventure (Twinsen is the guy in blue with the pimp medallion)
Half-Life (Gordon handing over his crowbar)
Full Throttle (again. the guy kicking a wheel thief)
SiN (Elexis is the one on the left of the bondage trio)
Messiah? (Bob flying above the bondage girls)
Leisure Suit Larry (lying surrounded by scantily clad females)
Tomb Raider (a topless Lara Croft just to the right of Larry)
No One Lives Forever (Cate is just behind Lara, holding a tray)
Day of the Tentacle (the purple & green tentacle standing in line)
American McGee's Alice (far left, holding a knife and a cup of tea)
Pac Man (dead, been cooked and is being served)
Armed & Dangerous (the robot sitting opposite Alice)
Thief (Garrett is stealing a picture of Hitler)
Wolfenstein 3D? (that same picture of Hitler)
Earthworm Jim (the body of the green worm diagonally down from Garrett)
Worms (the little pink worm looking up at the green worm)
Fallout (guy emerging from vault 13)
Aliens vs Predator (guy in robotic lifter holding the same apart)
Starcraft Ghost? (girl on far right walking out the door crying)
Quake (guy with the axe hacking into the tentacled boss)
Star Wars: KOTOR (far right, guy holding red lightsabre)
Simon the Sorcerer (the wizard on the far left being followed by a chest)
Discworld? (that chest on legs)
Splinter Cell (the big eye below Simon is wearing Sam's goggles)
Doom 2 (head on a stick to the right of the eye)
Doom 1,2&3 (flaming head just to the right of that)
Doom 3 (the fancier flaming head)
Doom 1,2&3 (cyberdemon having an arm wrestle)

MP3 Of The Week: Lee Perry - Disco Devil.mp3 (?)
#56 by Ashiran
2007-05-27 23:52:23
Serious Sam (hugging someone and holding a cup of something)

Very telling that you didn't recognize Duke 'Nukem.

Only the poor desire wealth.
#57 by anaqer
2007-05-27 23:53:19
+ Silent Hill ( Pyramid Head handing a piece of Pac-Man to Alice )

Garbage unreasonable. Refuses to be taken away.
#58 by Ashiran
2007-05-27 23:54:51
Painkiller (guy shooting a stake through a line of characters)

Kain from Legacy of Kain. Bloodrayne and the horrid Army Men games.

Only the poor desire wealth.
#59 by Ashiran
2007-05-27 23:57:28
Star Wars: KOTOR (far right, guy holding red lightsabre)

The other guy is Raziel from the Soulreaver games.

Only the poor desire wealth.
#60 by Ashiran
2007-05-28 00:00:45
The three holding the large sign are the chars from Daikatana. "I CAN'T LEAVE MY BUDDY SUPAHFLY!"

And in the Chutulluh line are Maximillan from Evil Genius and Le Chuck from Monkey Island 3.

Only the poor desire wealth.
#61 by Ashiran
2007-05-28 00:03:47
Kurt from MDK is hanging from the Quake tentacle. And the guys in the cage bottom right are from Another World.

Only the poor desire wealth.
#62 by gaggle
2007-05-28 00:13:57
The Quake 3 and Unreal Tournament guys running with a pair of flags. Meh.

"…a four-dimensional real vector space equipped with a nondegenerate, symmetric bilinear form."
#63 by Gunp01nt
2007-05-28 00:17:23
supersimon33@hotmail.com
Also in the line is the guy from Pandemonium
Hanging from the monster the Quake guy is hacking, is Kurt from MDK
In the brawl to the center right are:
- Megaman
- Sergeant something from Z
- Crusader: No Remorse
- Quake 2 enemy
Space Quest: Roger Wilco cleaning up the bloody mess on the left

dethstryk: My friend bought some porno mags. He's single-handedly holding up the porn industry.
yotsuya: What's he doing with the other hand?
#64 by gaggle
2007-05-28 00:18:34
And I guess the Blade Runner game, though I don't remember any interrogation scenes specifically (it's in the movie obviously, but I don't remember it from the game). With Republic Commando being interrogated of course.

"…a four-dimensional real vector space equipped with a nondegenerate, symmetric bilinear form."
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